№5 – Olfactory Workshops for UK Prisons with Mike O'Shaughnessy

Our guest, Mike O'Shaughnessy, a Senior Lecturer in Graphic Design and Illustration at Liverpool School of Arts, shares insights into a unique project developed in collaboration with the prison education provider Novus. Over the past years, they conducted olfactory storytelling workshops in UK prisons. Join us as Mike explores the complex world of scent within this environment, revealing both its challenges and its potential.

EPISODE LINKS:
• Mike's Blog: http://moshaughnessy.co.uk
• Education provider Novus: https://www.novus.ac.uk/
• Fragrance supplier Carvansons: https://carvansons.co.uk/

PERFUMES:
• #5, Chanel
• Cuir de Russie, Chanel 
• Bois des Iles, Chanel
• Pour Homme, Caron
• 1996, Byredo
• Portrait of a Lady, Frederic Malle

BOOKS:
• Love in the Time of Cholera by Gabriel Garcia Marquez
• The Long Goodbye by Raymond Chandler

Ever dreamt about going to space? Connect with Tanya!

• https://www.instagram.com/neparfumer/
• https://www.coachmironova.com/

Transcript

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I think I should say this as a disclaimer. So one thing I'm not, I'm not a perfume expert and I'm also not a scientist. So I sort of in sort of in this gray area between all of those sorts of things. you Welcome to Not a Perfumerie podcast, where we talk about sense in connection to art, wellness and innovation. My name is Tanya Mironova, I'm an refractory arts educator and your Denmark-based host today. My guest for the episode is Michael O'Shaughnessy, Dupont-Straight... Senior lecturer in graphic design and illustration at Liverpool School of Art, Liverpool John Moores University. Michael is also an educator... and during our episode you will learn more about it. So Michael, you're welcome. Thanks for inviting me on Tanya. Really excited to talk to you. Suppose I sort of like, I'll put some background on my perfume journey. That would be lovely. I've always been obviously, I mean like probably a lot of your guests have always been sort of like fascinated and sort of had a smell and perfume obsession but sort of I had this curiosity in sort of how perfume worked and a long time ago, about sort of 10 years ago, I went on a course about smell. I want to realise it was run by Les Santers and it's through an organisation called The School of Life. What I found was that Most of the people on the course were interested in being working in the perfume industry. And what I noticed was in terms of the narratives that came out of those sessions when we were exposed to certain smells like vetiver and some of the science around it. I think I should say this as a disclaimer. So one thing I'm not, I'm not a perfume expert and I'm also not a scientist. So I sort of in this gray area between all of those sorts of things. I went on this course. I sort of learned a lot about sort of, how smell works. And I noticed that the narrative part, how people told stories around smells and how it made them think. So coming back to my education and being a teacher, I noticed working with final year students, there's always a point in the year where they've got to develop sort of autonomous projects and sort of illustration students and design students who tend to work prescriptively in terms of responding to briefs. It can be quite tricky. I thought I'll try this out. I'll try exposing the students to a range of perfumes and ask them a very, simple questions. What does it make them think of? think the other thing as well is what is important is the structure and the setting and the environment you sort of conduct that sense. if you frame it around storytelling and literature, I've always been a huge Gabriel Garcia Marquez fan. An amazing quote in the Love in the Time of Cholera, which was written in 1985. And it starts with, it was inevitable. The scent of bitter almonds always reminded him of the fate of unrequited love. And basically it's the opening line from this brilliant novel and what it basically, what it is, it's about a guy who's obviously killed himself. He's like sort of, you know, lost love and he's killed himself, you know, sort of because of someone's requited love. And when the doctor turns up, could smell, he basically could smell almonds for the perfume people. You'll know that the chemical equation, the chemical construction of almonds and arsenic is very, very similar. You introduce a sort of a workshop. with students and you set the context about storytelling. So straight away, you're thinking of a story. So obviously you preface it to say, this isn't a guessing, it's not a quiz. You're not here to guess what the smells are. Just tell me what it, it's instantly, what does it make you think of? So what I found was that in terms of sort of the mixed ability of types of people I was working with, it's not always the clever kids that always know, have great stories. The stories in terms of, that are struck, Everyone has a story. Found it was really useful and it worked. And then I was invited to sort of install Perfume Stories at Tate Liverpool as part of a Tate exchange program. And then I structured it in a slightly different way. I sort of hired a sound recording artist so I could record people's feedback. And then at a plenary session, I was approached by an organization called Novus that deliver enrichment and rehabilitation in prisons across the UK, the 50 prisons they deliver. education in Richmond. So they asked me to try, they said, well, do want to try it in a prison? And I thought, well, of course, you know, you know, I was fascinated, you know, and there's a local prison in Liverpool. Yeah, but before you proceed, I wanted to give some context for the listeners. Reading your blog and found that Novus is the educational institution for the prisoners. For me, it was just a mind-blowing idea that it's even possible that people do emphasize the need of the education in prisons, like in these settings, for giving some context from the Novus website. that over 47 % of prisoners in the UK don't have any formal education qualifications. So it's unsurprising that breaking the cycle of reoffending is virtually impossible without first introducing the importance of education to our learners. By working with partner organizations and our educator teams, we provide routes to success for learners upon release, empowering them to re-enter their communities rehabilitated and ready to give back. It's just some context about novels and I'm very happy that they approached you. Yeah, I mean, I think as well, think, you in terms of, you know, you can take a moral position on sort of, on offending. And I think, I mean, I was just curious, you know, I want, you know, how many of us can say they've been into a prison and walked out, you know, this sort of, you know, without, in that context. And I was always, I was always slightly, I found it interesting. And I think the moral question is always that all these guys are going to get out. And the most, I've mainly worked with male prisons. So the people come out as... rehabilitated because they're going to be living next door to us, they're going to be integrated or are they just punished? I think they, you the moral question is that they've got to get out of prison at some point. So the best way to address that type of sort of offending is education. So in the UK, there's, you know, there are, you know, there's a lot of effort to try and educate. However, prison services under sort of immense pressure to sort of, you know, keep people behind bars. And so it's not an easy path. But the novice teams are sort of almost sort of they work across different they're brought in units to work in education. So I was approached by a called Sarah Hartley who's one of the sort of know senior education sort of management team and she said do want to try it? So we tried it in Liverpool prison and Liverpool prison it's like sort of you know I suppose like jumping in the deep end it's an old Victorian prison it was very very interesting that's an understatement. Reading your blog definitely gives some of your impressions of what you felt, but yeah, I'm happy you could share it right now as well. I tell you, the most interesting thing is the smell. Couldn't get this, I mean, the first, I was there for like half a day a day. I couldn't get the smell off my clothes or, and it was two things, it's the noise and the smell. I should say before I sort of went to do this, there's lots of security clearance. You know, must admit, I was inquisitive and I was a little bit nervous and you got to go through security clearance and there's lots of things you're allowed to do and you're not allowed to do so. in terms of sort of not allowed to take liquids and certain things. So I designed a way of presenting the scents. I worked on a prototype of how I could bring them in and the learners could smell them. And then I also had to work on worksheets. And again, that was, I suppose, the first few experience where again, quite a steep learning curve because, know, I'm used to dealing with like undergrads and there's a level of education there. what... what I suppose I used the first sessions for to see how would they respond and what did they respond to? The hardest thing was, is from, I can gather from working with the Novus teams was selling the idea to the prisoners, to the learners. You know, they have a thing called enrichment, an enrichment day. So they have like a half a day on a Friday, and depending on which prison you go to. So they have these days where they do education. So some of them do art and so, suppose it was like a step into the dark for me, because I knew, I knew it would work. So the first thing was, you the experience is like really, really strange. You know, you know, so I've sort of, I, I always have like, I think I had to be prepared to be as flexible as possible. I was given a really good briefing from the teams I was working with. said, if they don't sort of respond to it, they'll just get up. They'll just get up and walk out. Just get up and learn. often you get used to in your schooling, I mean like students you usually know how to make them respond. Well, think that's the thing is think the power dynamics different, you know, I think the whole point about, you you walk in education, you know, sort of there's a sort of a hierarchical structure there. You know, I can I can say to the students, sit down, you want to write this down or respond to this. And there I was aware that, you know, most of them have like the average reading age is really pretty, writing age is really, really low. Again, I sort of I was always thinking of what happens if this happens, you know, they're not prepared to write. That's fine. But I'm interested to see how they respond. but also I was quite sort of confident that they would respond. But it's like a curve ball, know, it's sort of, project tricks them into learning. When they come in, think the first experience with learners is I was told they're gonna be a little bit skeptical and they're also going to be a bit cagey. So they don't know who I am. I'm not a prison guard, so I'm not sort of seen as sort of as an authoritative type. And also a lot of them are just like, It's a very sensory deprived environment prison. they're interested in that. What I found with working with them is they know a lot of information. They know facts, but they don't often make cognitive connections between those facts. They don't often make rational decisions based around bits of education. They know information because they're hoovering up information all the time. So I tried this thing and I also should say, cause I've been collecting certain smells and certain perfumes and I've got an idea that Certain things tend to work. So like based on your personal perception. And based on what I've done with students and the Tate Exchange project was really useful because there was certain perfumes and colognes that I used, because I get them from all over the world and a standard one I use is Queer the Roosie by Chanel. It's a very, very romantic, beautiful smell. One of my favorite perfumes. But you give that to a male prisoner and it will take them to a different place. Also, as you would say, the workshop areas is a very, glamorous way of saying, know, these are rooms, you know, I mean, you know, again, it's sort of, you know, lot of prison education is underfunded. And sometimes I was actually at the prison cells, you know, and I was shocked. thought I'd have an armed guard and it's very low key, you know, and I think most people when I tell them about this project, think, well, were you never scared? Were you going to be attacked? And I think I was never, I've never been threatened once or never felt intimidated because the environments I'm placed in, those types of learners aren't in the, you know, they're in, they tend to be in Category A prisons. And how many categories are there? A, B, and C? My knowledge, I mean, there's normally four categories of prisons. D is an open prison. C and B are normal prisons. And A is like high security prison where you've got like really, saying that. I have worked with major drug dealers and murderers and a lot of them are in there for big, big sentences. So these environments, they're not, again, they're not bringing to environments to teach. And the first session it worked, I think what it did, really caught them off guard. Yeah, but going back to the first session, like how many prisoners visited it? I did two sessions with four five prisoners. I worked with small groups because they have to be comfortable to talk. They have to talk. I just get them to talk about the project. I say, what does it make you think of? And straight away, in terms of sort of, know, I also explain it, explain the science of smell. I explain the literature and I say, look, this is how science works. And I use infographics to explain. And one of the ways I explain it is that they're like safety, you know, the hippocampus is like a safety deposit box. filled with these tiny boxes and all it takes is one tiny molecule to open up that box and to release, know, it'll take you back to a timer or a place. And they understand that straight away, know, things like stress or, you know, if they've had a blunt injury around in the head, that can sort of, you know, affect the smell. you know, so I've had that once with one of the prisons. But in terms of... if they're stressed, their anxiety, you know, the stress levels, they sort of, you know, can affect their smell. So I have these disclaims, say, if they're really highly stressed, the smells will break down. So I have these disclaims, so, you know, it'll work if, almost in most situations, if in these circumstances. So then, so I explain the sort of the safety, I explain how the hippocampus works and how smell is a direct. Like right now I feel like those guys are more privileged because they have you. I think the other thing as well is the sort of, so you start, you know, introduce the narrative. So you get them to think about stories, you know, and then you also then you explain a little bit about the science. So straight away, the listening and what really surprised me, you know, after doing this for about two years, you know, and I was writing about it and I spoke to her on the seat, you know, my liaison, Sarah, she said, it's really surprising. Just getting them to sit down is a big ask. And actually a lot of them won't sit down in a room and listen. Getting them to sit down for an hour and a half. Although they do get up and go to the loo is actually a big achievement. So they're things I just take for granted. She said, no, they actually sit down and listen, which is unusual. some of it, so, and also you've got to remember a lot of them have had very mixed experiences with education. So they sort of, you know, they can be skeptical. So my project sort of almost sort of, it sort of tricks them into learning. Straight away you'll get these guys. I think I should say everything sort of has to be. Safeguarding issues around the prisoners is really, really high. So I'm not meant to know what they're in there for. And I just work on their first names and I try and make a note of their first names and we sort of, you address them in that way. Cause they normally, they normally got like a prison number. So in terms of sort of what they're in there for, there's certain types of wings which have certain offenders. So like what's called in terms of the land, the mains prison, the main prisoners. That means they tend to be sex offenders. I've worked with sort of vulnerable prisoners, sex offenders, paedophiles, and sort of people who are vulnerable, but they may include policemen or judges or people they think they'll be bullied. But a lot of the people who are in those wings tend to be drugs on the main wing or be under threat of violence or they're sort of moot there. So in terms of sort of the, you know, I'm not meant to know what they're there for, but I also give out these, I always give out a worksheet and say, look, I want you to take this back to your cell later and... some of the things I'm going to get you to think about you might want to write them down later but they often start talking so the most common thing when I say you give them a like a quid arusi to smell or like bradda e meal you know big hitters I use with Chanel I use lots of others it's often it's a matriarchal experience that takes them back to their childhood a lot of them have tended to have positive matriarchal experiences rather than positive patriarchal experiences. It will take them back to like the grandmother's house. The most common thing I hear, oh it reminds me of my grandmother. Then you sort of deconstruct it and you explain why that's happening. And it's often it's to do with vanilla and the ubiquity of vanilla. And I talk about when vanilla was developed and how it's in perfumes. But then I also contextualize things like, you know, I might talk about Karen Paul Haum and I'll talk about when was that made? I also say, I know, so have you ever thought about who might be wearing that in say, in France in 1939 and then straight away they're thinking, well, actually what was happening in Europe? what you're slowly doing is from a pedagogical approach, you're introducing little concepts all the time and then you stand back and you say, you know what we've just done today? This is what's called an empathetic approach and this is a multi-century workshop and actually some of the words I've used are what, like sort of methodologies and even the word methodology they wouldn't know. actually this is quite, you know, this is actually quite highbrow stuff. And straight away, I think it's quite empowering for them to realise that they're taking part in this process. So the early sessions, I was always trying to work out, you know, what should I change, what should I do? And I have some interesting experiences because I did have an experience recently where, you know, all the, there's different security in different prisons. So I've worked across HMP Liverpool, HMP, you ever have to tell to our listeners what is HMP? it's... Yeah. Well, I've Googled it already, but for me in the beginning, HMP, what does... So it's a prison service. It's called everything's like prefix with HMP. So it's HMP Liverpool, HMP Buckley Hall in Rochdale and HMP Hindley. So again, they've got different levels of offenders. But when I was asked to work in HMP Risley, had to, know, again, they've got different, so I had to send in the paper samples all sealed. The first sessions at Liverpool, they're allowed to keep the samples. They go back to the cells. I go back to the following week and I talk to them as well. The problem was that when they scanned the samples at RISDLY, they found large quantities of heroin on the samples, which was unusual, which surprised me. And what I found out later that actually they have a chemical way of... because a lot of drugs come into prison through paper. And what happened was that the chemical structure that sometimes is found in narcotics is in a lot of perfume. Because I've been working with an organization called Carvansens. and they'd been working with me and it was some of their noses and their scientists explaining that to me. So that did make a lot of sense. So I think the upshot was they couldn't take the paper samples back to the cells. We had to get them back, which was a pain, but it still worked. Before we proceed, because I have so many questions, but I wanted to ask about these Carvassons organizations, big organization, because when I found them in your blog, well, I've also found you wrote that it was kind of difficult to find partners for this project. Well, we both could understand why. I just want to read something from your blog and like ask you to comment on that as well. I can understand why most of the luxury perfume companies never responded to my requests for feedback or interviews. Companies selling expensive perfumes may not want to be associated with institutions that deal with crime and punishment. There is real complexity in building a workshop around something that has a big connection with image and sexual allure. So it's just a very deep phrase. I just want to ask you how did you go through all this because you needed to find perfumes for the workshops. You have your collection, but you couldn't be like using Cure de Russie. all the time, like in very big amounts because it's an expensive perfume. So, like, how did you approach this problem? Well, I think initially when I was doing the workshops, got, I did get a budget to buy perfume. It wasn't huge, but you know that obviously, you know, certain, you know, like Frederick Malt perfumes or, know, some of the, some of the, you know, more high end, they're expensive. So I have got, I've got an okay collection. Just to reiterate what you said, I think I did understand why, you know, it's, it doesn't always tick all the marketing boxes for, for companies to say, if you want to get involved in this project. again partly to do with the romance and the sort of know otherworldliness that Perthian, the Perthian givers and also and you know ultimately it's you know it's it often there is a part of it it's about this allure of Perthian so that was an issue and so one of the one of the learners at Liverpool prison told me about this company called Carvansens and I thought and and prisoners once they do my workshop I cannot stop them talking. I know that feeling. I've been having workshops in a few countries and yeah people when they're exposed to smells you could just leave the room they will be doing everything all day long Exactly. and also you take, you know, these lads as well, they're all often from different wings. just, know, some of them don't draw breath and they're inquisitive. So this guy was telling me about this organization that, you know, called Carvansens and actually he was a former Carvansens client who used to buy chemicals and perfume. as part of a cleaning products. Found Carvansens and I just literally approached them. said, look, I sent them links to my website and I sent them a little publication. said, you know, would you be interested in sort of, know, having a conversation about this? And they were brilliant. know, Vicky Last had the communications and some of the team there, they were amazing. So they got me over and explained the project and what they've been doing is again, they've been seeing it as a sort of, know, I think as a sort of a a pilot project for them. And what I also found is, you know, certain things work. So I asked them if they could like give me the smell of grass. Grass is a really popular one, you know. Although there's the certain perfumes that have those, some of those elements in them. there's some of them, and it's always very, very positive. they made me a few bespoke, you know, they've a few bespoke smells like grass. Wood is another really good one. paper, but they made me the smell of paper. And I've tried these out and they've worked again. I've had some amazing stories with long-term prisoners who suddenly, and what I also do is I never tell them what they're gonna smell, I just say, I'm gonna give you something to smell, me what it makes you think of. And then someone will say, well, it reminds me of when I used to football when I was 12 and it was the changing rooms in a field. and they're smelling cut grass and they're saying that. And I suppose the other thing I always say, when's the last time you had that memory? And said, oh, it maybe 40 years. Wow, okay, have you ever started crying because of what they said? No, but I've had people, not male prisoners, obviously, I've had people cry. I had people cry at the Tate workshop and one of the education people who was helping out on Hindley, she cried because one of the smells reminded me of a grandmother who passed away and she cried. Prisoners, you you can see it shocks them because they're really shocked. said, when's the last time you had that memory? And he said, well, I've not had that memory since I was like 12 and then in their 60s. Well, yeah. And as soon as that happens, really get it. And so there's been all this sort of thing. then I sort of, you know, I take a step back and say, you know, this is about critical thinking, you know, this is like, this is quite good educational stuff. And so then they understand that, you know, because they often say, they're often inquisitive, but they think, why are doing this? And it will actually, it really gets to get out of itself. But actually, you know, this is a different approach to learning. you know, the only big difference between me and you obviously, apart from the fact that I'm on the outside and you're on the inside is, I know what these words mean and I can make a structure around these words and I can make rational, coherent decisions about some of this information. But it's all about knowledge. For me, I think it's about empowerment and... Exactly, just made people feel alive. I think inspired. just, you see, I'm overwhelmed just because I'm talking about it and I'm not smelling right now anything. This is how powerful it is. but it's such a powerful emotional response. think it does really affect them. think the other thing that what I've done is I've sort of learned a lot in terms of sort of, you know, what works and I sort of, you know, in terms of the safeguarding thing, I'm much better at it now because I've learned a lot of things. So for example, that quote from Marquez from the Love and Time of Cholera, the actual full quote, it talks about the guy who killed himself when he was a photographer and he was a photographer of children. So straight away, anything around children, and actually what I don't talk about is anything to do with, that has any sexual content. So for example, also, early on in the project, I talk about Raymond Chandler, how a lot of his novels, there's like, there's perfume references littered through, you know, that type of hard boiled detective novel. So again, they love all that, and I talk about femme fatales and... and I talk about writing. I'll also give them, I'm often giving them reading lists, but then there's things like, say, I tend to edit out, so I won't talk, you know, there's a book, one of Chandler's books, The Long Goodbye, there's an amazing quote, and it's like, you'd sleep with her, they all would, you'd like to share her dreams and sniff the rose of her memories. And that's one of the people talking about Maureen Wade on the character. So anything which is a direct link about really sex. I don't talk about. There's some of the things I've sort of, I've worked out how to steer away from. And I suppose I also try and avoid any overtly masculine smells. I use things like Fougeres, which are sort of, if that's a product, know, anything that's overtly masculine, try and avoid a little bit. I now know why the fragrance companies didn't support your project, I mean like most of the companies you approach, because they like thrive on sex and masculinity and you're doing nothing. Yeah, so that's what I've learned more later on. I don't sort of overtly build that in, but I manage that in a particular way. So my job is like, I'm always introducing them to sort of the bits of literature like, know, Bulgakov's The Master in Margarita and, you know, The Petty Demon by Sol Goob. So I'm always talking about perfume references in literature. I'm always looking for those and reading about them. I'm bombarding the guys, the learners. with these literary references, but then all the time getting them to think about, well, tell me your story. So the workshops normally run for like three consecutive weeks. The first week, they're cagey, they're always sort of, know, checking me out, you know. Should we see? Yeah, the second week, I can't shut them up. The third week, you know, again, you know, it's normally a really positive experience. Again, I think prisoners who've been in, who doing longer prison sentences are easier to work with. They're more... the calmer, the more resigned, that they've got bigger, bigger sentences. And then, you know, again, they're much more easier to manage. Younger prisoners are harder to manage. I've noticed, you know, it's a lot of it's crowd control. longer term prisoners are much easier to deal with. And I think I've picked up certain things. So I've had a few things which I think definitely didn't work. I can try to smell called 1996, which is made by Bayerido. I know this one, Very, very interesting because the whole structure around how they made it was interesting because it was based on a photograph by two photographers. So what I decided, I tried this out, I said, I'm going to give you something to smell. I said, it's based on a photograph and I want you to think next week, I'm going to give you it now and I'm going to bring the photograph next week and I want you to guess what you think the photograph is of. And I gave you a little smell. But the problem is it. What I've noticed within male prisons, there's a weird, honest, there's a very, very uncomfortable hierarchy around children and paedophiles. The credits of a young girl, if you see that smell, the smell is amazing. It's an amazing photograph. But of a very young girl, wearing makeup. And I think that they didn't really, they felt really uncomfortable. They're, in terms of some of the things that haven't worked, that didn't work. So I basically had to shelve that, shelve that. And I went back to some more of the things I think tend to work. I've been working with Carvansons on some new smells. But now I'm at a stage now where the project's being delivered across the Northeast by novice, about five prisons, and they're delivering on my behalf. So because of my job as a lecturer, I found it takes a lot of time, even on sort of a physical level. It's tiring. You go into a prison, you're exhausted. found that novice have been delivering the workshop on my behalf. I've been organizing packs and worksheets. we've been working on and that's so far that's been pretty. Well, it's a scale and an idea because you technically proved that you somehow tried the methodology, tried if it works, if it doesn't. But how could you assess, do you think, will you ever be able to assess the results of this work? That is the key question. I suppose the biggest issue is one, is the participants always have to remain anonymous. So in terms of the safeguarding of who they are and what they're in there for. Prisons in the UK can be quite chaotic places. Often prisoners are moved. So when you go through a series of sentences, there's what's called a dispersal prison. There's a mains prison, but then they might end up in a cat D prison, which is an open prison. So often, prisoners will often get moved. just in terms of negotiating where people are, it's going to be really, really hard. Keeping sort of, you know, the participants anonymous, again, is another factor. My biggest issue has always been, how do you conduct any follow up research? That's always going to be like a really, really tricky, tricky issue because every prison has different educational regimes. actually, you know, a lot of the time, you know, sometimes there's a shortage of security. teams in prisons. So often education doesn't quite, you you might tend to a prison and it may not run that day. So there's complexity around how prisons run. That's an understatement. The next level of us going back into prisons to conduct sort of interviews will always be really, really difficult. I am going to do some, hopefully do more interviews with some of the education staff who've been delivering the Northeast work. So in terms of sort of, I suppose the empirical stuff, and getting sort of, data out of it. It's hard. And I think that's it. It's the fact that the prisoners are moved. They have to remain anonymous. So that's the sort of, oh, it's gonna be a stumbling block. Anonymous prison is probably a good thing for science, for scientific research, like nobody knows, like it's 100 %... It's something we, well, the official science sometimes try for, but not in the random sense, right? I mean, if you conduct experiments, he wants to know the participants, at least to be stable to place them somewhere. you know, do know something, you know, sort of in terms of sort of the behavior that I normally have a prison guard in the room or an education office and you know, a lot of the time and sometimes there's no prison guard. So in terms of the stability of the people with people I know have done, you know, sort of, you know, have big sense of, you know, I know that they because often they'll tell me, know, I said, you're not meant to tell me that. I'm going to say there's something that might be in there for murder or there's a, I suppose there's, you know, certain cliches, you know, some, know, some of the big time, big prisoners from the Northwest, they're in there for drugs. And they're very, very educated, interesting people because they're business people. I think so in terms of sort of, know, the behavior, the behavior is pretty normal. So in terms of sort of the volatility of, I don't tend to get those types of people. However, I have worked with those types of prisoners in a very controlled way in sort of what's known as like prisoners who are on a sexual offenses program. They've been the trickiest, some of the trickiest offenders to work with. found that. prisoners who are in there for like sexual offences or crimes against women. There's a level of control they've always, you know, they've always had. The most common one I get is that they'll say, I don't really get anything from this at the moment. it's to do with like, they're trying to control the narrative in the room. So I just have to be used, I'm used to it. Yeah, I saw it also in your blog that the responses are quite different at times. I've also noticed, it's maybe one of the things that your personal experience from 2019, I believe it's the time when you started, is a little bit different than what you are writing in 2022. mean, like your personal... You are more relaxed as I feel it. Because in the start it was the smell of the prison. I suppose it was a really big scary factor. Or maybe something else, like the whole different environment etc. So the way you described it at first, it really evolved and differed for time. the noise and the constant shouting, you you've got to remember because when they come out, they're locked up all week, so when they come out for their enrichment, the first thing they're going to do is shout to their mates. the noise is just noisy. And so it's like very hard environment. And then they often, when they come to my workshop, of, they're in, they're on a workshop with people from different wings. So they're all talking to each other about the wings and stuff then. And so... You you can't go in hard and say, you know, right, sit down there. You've got to do it sort of slowly. And I think so in terms of my experience, I'm used to it now. My first experience was the prisoners are really close to me. Should they be close to me? You know what? You know, and now I'm used to it. And then I'm also I'm used to the smell. You know, the smell is like it's like a place which doesn't have any fresh air and it's got a unique smell, which is which is like hard to describe, but it just stays with you. Could you probably, because you're trained nose, in a few adjectives say what's the smell? like, I suppose it's probably something wet. You mean in the prison? Imagine you roast beef, you roast some beef and you leave it in the oven and you leave it there for a few days. You open up the oven and it's gone cold and the smell of... It's a combination of airlessness and smell of like mustiness, stale air and all of those things. And it's just like bad food that's just been left to go bad. And saying that, it's not, know, because I think the prisons are clean. Prisons are really clean. On the inside they're really, really clean. And I was up in the North East recently and the staff and the place was spotless and it was amazing and a great experience. But my first experience at Liverpool, Liverpool was a bit of a shock. I believe it's because of the building. It has all that in it. You couldn't do anything about it. I suppose it's probably the same in Europe, know, reforming prisons isn't going to win people's it doesn't get government votes, you know, people don't want to reform prisons, they don't really want to make them better places, they want to lock people up. So the prisons, know, can be, again, very mixed experience, so it's the smell and the noise which is the really strangest thing. What I've also found was that, you know, as a byproduct of the workshop is this idea of breathing through their nose as well, it's really relaxing, really calm and down. I just meditated before you like breathing through the nose and breathing out through the mouth like this type of thing. People like us, we're aware of all the of, know, the of the wellbeing and health benefits of breathing and walking. What I found was that what I noticed was like, they were like, by the end of it, they were exhausted. They were yawning. said, why am I so tired? You know, and why they were, and they were quite relaxed. And I thought, actually part of reason that they're just, they're breathing through their noses. And also they're using a part of their brain, which they've not been, they've not used or part, you know, the... part of it, know, the sensors, they're not used properly for, in some cases, years. So the workshop, if you think about it, it's like a combination of lots and lots of things. I think for me, that's why it's sort of, know, that's why it works. I think if it was just about science, they wouldn't buy it. think that's partly the reason it's successful is you're introducing lots and small little tiny methods, methodologies, concepts. So that's why it's been successful. But are you planning with Novus or with some other operators to introduce these workshops in other parts of the country or maybe in other countries? I mean, at stage now in education, we're thinking, what do I want to do next? And I think, know, Novus have been amazing and they've been really supportive and car vans have. So I'm sort of quite open, you know, I'm open to sort of, know, any other, if people are sort of, interested in saying, do you want to try it here? You know, I'm quite, you know, inquisitive. I'd be quite responsive because I think sort of there's also periods where, you know, in education where I sort of I'm locked into sort of, you know, all the educational stuff I'm working on. So. my research project can sort of can stop and start depending on where I am educationally. But you know, I've had a few bits of interest, but you know, I suppose it's not being a well publicized what I'm doing. It's starting to sort of, know, since you know, Carvansin's publicized it, and it was on, you know, different, a few different features and a few different blogs. So now I think more people are becoming aware of So maybe afterwards you'll be writing a methodology to do that. not much pressure on me educationally to write about it, but I suppose within educational circles there's always a point you say, why don't you write a paper? Why don't you write a paper? it's something I might do. Well, I've done my own publication of sorts. It's just to try and sort of, know, a stage of both to say, this is what I've done and this is where I am. But I suppose being someone who comes from a drawing background and being inquisitive, I'm always trying to think, what can I do next with it? Where can I go next with it? I'm more than happy to go and talk to people about it. have invited somewhere, I'm more than happy to do that. But I believe you have so many insights, I will be right now googling after I finish by reading this photo. Since it's really like, you know, all these things they make you think differently. Something which seems you to be okay is not okay in some circumstances. And this is about everything in life. When you think that something is crystal clear and this is the biggest wisdom and it's going to work like in every... situation then you will definitely encounter a situation when it doesn't work. I have a list of blitz questions to to finish our lovely discussion. What was the first smell you experienced? Chanel No. 5. It's always been one of my favourite smells and was Chanel. I remember thinking I used to love the smell of Chanel No. 5 and it was partly to do with that smell, the complexity of that smell and then that sort of, you know, that led me to think, well actually, you know, someone said, well, you want to try this, you love smell and then I discovered quite a Cuita Roussi, which is like a step up. Cuita Roussi is like, you know, elite level. It's from the balance perspective. It's not possible not to value it very high. So I suppose like my favorite, you know, so I discovered Queer and Roosy, which is sort of became, you know, one of my all time favorites. And then the structure of it and then, you know, the story of Ernest Boe, again, which a lot of the prisoners love this idea of a Russian émigré and all these narratives. then talking about the Russian, even you talk about the perfume industry in Russia, you know, and Red Moscow and... all of those things, they love all of that and I love these narratives. So the short, the quick answer is, know, Chanel number five and then Queen of Music. Would you prefer old book smell or a new magazine smell? As an illustrator would you prefer... Okay, I know you use maybe mostly digital means. I don't know. It's... I'm just thinking. But like would you prefer oil paints smell or pencil lead smell? Pencil, 100%. I'm a traditionalist. So me saying something about digital stuff, just forget it completely. So if you could turn any book, and we've been talking about books today a lot, into a scratch and sniff edition, those cards, know, scratch and sniff, which book would it be? It would be The Long Goodbye by Raymond Chandler. right because it's now on my list after your introduction. 100 % because I think he was obsessed by smell definitely. You look at those old black and white films as well, they're amazing. one. Desert Island Scenario. You're stranded with just one aroma for the rest of your life. I think I know which one you would choose but what scent would you choose? So probably... Portrait of a Lady by Frederick Man. My girlfriend wears that smell and I think it's part of, it's basically the newer version of Quid O Roussi. I never thought about it like that but probably actually I need to re-smell both and It comes back to the Raymond Chandler thing. It reminds me of a Hollywood actress in the 1950s. So that's what it would be. So thank you Mike, was really a pleasure for me to have you and best of luck with your further research and workshops. Thank you, thank you for your time, I really enjoyed it. Mike, you're super cool. I mean, you really need to write something about this stuff. you