№ 23 – From Synthetic to Natural: Caroline Leclerc on Relearning Perfumery

Learning a new skill is challenging, but relearning—especially in the art of perfumery—presents its own unique hurdles. Caroline Leclerc transitioned from classical perfumery to embracing a naturals-only palette. In this episode, we not only explore how she recreates scents like oceanic breezes without traditional synthetics such as Calone, but also talk about continuous self-challenge and growth in the evolving world of natural perfumery.​

 Links:

• LinkedIn: Caroline Leclerc
• Website: Viti Vinci

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• https://www.instagram.com/neparfumer/
• https://www.coachmironova.com/

Transcript

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Yes. Yoga, right? Thank you. Hi and welcome to the How I became a perfumer podcast. In each episode we explore the different roles in the flavor and fragrance industry as well as talk to founders of independent projects. My name is Tanya Mironova. I'm a career coach dedicated to helping you sniff out the best opportunities and inspiring you to create your own projects. Feel free to book a caution session with me using the links in the description box. And let's get started! My guest for the today's episode is a truly dynamic individual who melts her love for nature and adventure with her professional expertise. Caroline Leclerc is a perfumer based in the island of Mallorca, crafting unique scents for a local fragrance creation house. When she's not experimenting with her fragrances, you might find her riding the waves, exploring trails, or perfecting her yoga poses. Caroline? Welcome to the show! Thank you Tania, thank you for having me. It's lovely to have you and yeah, it's probably one of the few times we are recording in the evening. So it's going to be very relaxed conversation. believe so. So I will start with a little tricky question. I usually prefer not to, you know, go chronologically through the lives of people, though we eventually, of course, think about childhood and speak about it a lot. But my first question will be to you about your linked in description and I've noticed only a few perfumers who have something like that in the section about me or about you or about they just list launches. So could you please tell us what does it mean for the listeners, what launches could we be talking about and why is that so important? Well, uh for me, was interesting to list these launches because I'm very proud of the company that I work for. since we are quite a new company, for me, it's really important to show that we are capable of being trusted by big clients, by big hotels, and um that we are making our path into that quite competitive industry. This is why I wanted to put this forward. Another question from the like weird questions about LinkedIn is about being a member of the French perfume society. I know someone who tries to become a member of this society and it just never happened. Well, the reasons might be different. It's one of the guests of one of the episodes. just, but I'm not going to be saying who exactly, but could you please tell us what is that and why is it again important? for a fuma. Well, so the French Perfumer Society is an association that has uh the goal of regrouping people from the industry. So some are perfumers, some are event managers, commercials. There are a lot of different types of people being in that association. But most importantly is doing uh events and regrouping all of these people from the industry. For me, was really important being part of it uh since I'm already on an island and I know that mostly, uh well, perfumery is mostly, I mean, you have a lot of people in France, in Italy, in the US and being in Mallorca, I felt the need of being more connected to this society. And I was also very lucky to work uh for during my internship with the ex-president, the former president of the association. she really, well, she, I also with her, when working with her, I was really implicated uh into some of the events, the life of this association. So for me, was an evidence that once I would become an official perfumer, I would try my best to be part of it. And thanks to her and to... other people because you need to be recommended, you need to have sponsors to get in. Well, thanks to the people that I met during this time with her, I could access the association. And so they do events, they do conferences, dinners, and it's a very nice way to stay connected and keep in touch with anyone in the perfumery world that you might have known and that is rare to see outside of this. Right. Well, first of all, congratulations. Not everyone has this honor. And second of all, sounds like a really nice community. It is very interesting. I have a lot of conferences on the new challenges of the perfumery of today. These past months, we've been seeing a lot of events around natural perfumery, which I am in the middle of with my company now since we're only using naturals. So it's a great opportunity to learn many things from even people that you couldn't speak to because they're giving conferences and it's very interesting. Well, let's talk about this challenge you have right now, because uh you joined this company ah some time ago. years ago two years and a half ago Yeah, and was it always, has it always been the natural perfumery raw materials? Yes, so when I joined, we were a lot working with the palette of the Mediterranean, so of Mallorca mostly. And then as it grew, we were able to work with a bigger network of suppliers. And in the end, we are still 100 % natural, but our palette has extended. So we also use isolates so that these are natural molecules extracted. question yes yeah yes I mean, you have many, molecules that are not accessible in nature or that have been invented so that you could never find in any plants, but the ones that we can find um are very useful. Yeah. But returning to your training, because you've graduated from ISIPKA and also you have a license in chemistry. ah Was it difficult for you to adapt to a new challenge or you just really wanted it? How was it? No, so I admit it was quite hard because uh maybe you learned the full palette with natural, with molecules, invented molecules, and then all of a sudden you cannot use the natural part. So it's like a part, a big part of the raw materials are inaccessible and somehow you still have to make perfumes that smell like the ocean or that smell like leather. And it's another way of formulating in the end. uh trying to grasp facets of marine nodes, for example, or leather nodes into several natural components so that later you have this leathery impact, instead of just using, well, not just, but instead of using these molecules that are leathery. So it has been a challenge and I was, mean, uh it was a bit complicated at the beginning, but then I got into finding suppliers that are specialized in discovering new raw materials by going in the world and trying to really find unexpected materials. so now I'm much more comfortable with the palette I have. It's much bigger than what I would ever have thought before. But it's definitely very different from formulating with a regular palette where you can access all of these molecules that are a big part of perfumery, conventional perfumery anyways. Do feel like it's a new... well, no pun intended, it's a new wave which is very good to be on the top? Well, definitely in terms of marketing uh and trends, we're going towards something more natural. Maybe it's since the COVID and we're all kind of uh not being able to access nature and people want to go back to the old way, let's say. So in terms of marketing, for sure, it's a trend. But it's true that I see that a lot of clients are not so much ready to to see natural perfumes completely. Like they're expecting something else. It's like they want it to be natural, but then you make them smell natural perfume and it's like, it's not for everybody. That's for sure. But we are going towards that direction. That's so interesting. So they come to your company saying like, we found your company in the first place because it provides this type of opportunity. Then they come and then they feel and then they think, um It's actually different from what they're expected. Sometimes it's not, it's not the case all the time, but, um, I feel like a lot of people want to revend, revendicate natural ingredients of everything actual. in the end, not everybody is ready to, accept it or to, to, to separate themselves, to distant themselves from the conventional perfumer that we used to. Um, but that's also how we select our clients in the end, because the ones that are really interested are the ones that we are aiming for. yeah. Yeah, because I understand that it's all about how we learned, like how we learned. like for you it's also, I believe it's two times more difficult because you're creating things actually. We are just assessing things based on our perceptions, but for you like you understand both ends. And in some cases it sounds like you are really in a very... It's a very pioneering position. Though in fact you're just returning to the past with the new tools. Yeah, it's true. It's, I mean, we used to in perfumery in the past, we used to use much more naturals than now in commercial perfumery. it's kind of, yeah, returning to the past and well, it's not for everybody yet. Okay, I will ask you very direct question. Have you ever regretted that? I mean, that you could uh use a little bit of cologne in the oceanic sand or something like that, so... Well, yeah, every day when I'm creating something that I really need some aedion or some kalon or idotis tonelal, I'm all the time thinking, what if? But I know also that this is how I'm going to get deeper into the creation because it forces me to really go very deep into some other raw materials, find these facets and then technically group them with other facets of other raw materials and in the end, I'm always happy not to be in the end, not to be able to formulate with the molecules. But it's true that sometimes I miss them. I wanted to ask you about how did you even find yourself in Spain because if I'm not mistaken you're from France, isn't it? And how did you like take this challenge? Like now I'm going to Spain. Well, I had finished my studies uh and it was during COVID time. oh I knew and I knew from before as well that most opportunities as perfumers would be probably outside of France since it's a difficult world, especially in France. So I was always very open to traveling and then I... I saw this job opportunity that was in Mallorca, even though it wasn't supposed to be a consumer position, since it was in Mallorca and I had been there a few years ago and I had loved it. I clicked and applied and I had a very, very good feeling with the owner. And then I decided to move uh after that. So Spain actually was the ideal destination for me because I mean, Mallorca especially it's an island. You have, well, have the Palma is a capital city. So in the end you have a lot of art, a lot of culture. It's uh very alive. But then you drive 20 minutes away or you go by bike and you're in the mountains or you're in the beach. it's like, it's combining very well the two very important aspects for me, the city life and the nature. And so it was a no brainer. It was for me. Totally, it sounds exactly like that. And when you said also clicked and applied, I believe you meant LinkedIn. uh Yeah, it was job offer. I want, in fact, to ask you about the role of mentors in your life, because the first, like, when I, of course, we will again return to this uh magic networking at LinkedIn, but when you said that you moved to Mallorca and started working with raw materials mostly, with natural raw materials, and I was just thinking that if you have never had a mentor specifically in that, you have to become your own mentor. but like it sounds like in this uh perfumery house, perfume house, house of composition I would better say, you become your own Mensa to some extent. Yes, well, that was the case here in Vitivinci. I arrived and I very quickly became the main, I was directly the main perfumer. So I had to learn uh by myself, but I was, I mean, I was in very good contact with other people from the industry that have been working on it with natural. So they helped me at the beginning and now it's like a constant, constant evolution. And it's true that my mentors before, well, they were not specific to natural perfumery, but more to perfumery in general, even though we do use naturals in many perfumes. So I wasn't unfamiliar with them, but it's true that my pilot of natural materials was really increased by this experience. And some of them I didn't know at all. So I kind of had to train myself and smell more maybe the notes that I was uh more unfamiliar with and yeah it was a very interesting journey and it still is because i'm still receiving new raw materials from very weird plants in very weird places from the world to kind of try to understand and then integrating the formulas so it's very interesting. What are your criteria to accepting or not accepting these raw materials in your palette? Maybe first of all, is the amount they could produce or does it matter that much? What do look for? Yes, I mean, at the beginning, especially at the beginning that we were a very small company, I was really looking for a supplier capable of supplying uh small quantities. uh Now we need more quantities, so we are able to access almost any supplier. So that's also opening a lot of doors. But then the way I integrate them or not in the palette, I'd say would be uh how... how new it is to the collection I have. So for example, if I don't have many leathery notes and I receive from a supplier that I don't even know or that I don't even have any other materials, if I receive something very leathery, then I'm going to consider it uh in the palette. And then the next project I have on something leathery, well, I'll include it uh in the formula and see. yeah, I mean, of course, the sustainability part takes a lot of a lot of has a lot of weight because I mean, we're studies about how suppliers work with the producers and where do they sell, do they import the raw material itself or do they import the extracts already? This has also a lot of weight in the carbon footprint and everything. So this is part of the selection as well. Yeah, sounds perfect. And just returning to the mentor role, I remember one of the things from your profile because it's... Well, she is a perfumer who everyone admires or at some point admired probably. mean, Christine Nagel. I'm pronouncing her in an English way. Sorry, everyone. But do you feel like... I'm not going to ask you maybe exactly about ah What is it so special about this internship, about this mentorship? But how would you describe for the fragrance world a mentor who could make a difference for a student? Well, first of all, it really makes a difference when this person all of a sudden believes in you. And I was very lucky with Christine that she believed in me even though I didn't. So that really, really helped me, uh well, start thinking that, this could be it. I could become a perfumer. And the ability also of this person to let you let's say do your own path, even though they're supporting you. So that's really important. My internship with Christine was quite short, but very intense because I was able to work uh to like shadow her in a way and to work on many aspects of very even confidential uh project with her. So she was trusting me in that way and it was really great. And it was really... For me, the first uh approach to perfumery, she made me discover each olfactory family material by material, so synthetic molecules and as well naturals of each family. uh And then making me formulate my first accord and then my first perfumes. And she really dedicated a lot of time with me, even though she had no time. It is extremely busy. But yeah, it's this type of mentorship. changes your life basically. Right, so believing in you is the first thing which Manta should be doing probably then. Yeah, and I think it's something about the connection. You don't necessarily choose to do that, but if there is a good feeling and she sees that maybe your interest is real, could lead somewhere, go somewhere. I really am interested and I'm curious, you said that you didn't yourself believe in you at that point. uh Of course, it might be an exaggeration, but it's very interesting because you've chosen specifically the path. I mean, you haven't been in Isepka for no reason. yeah, ah you just said it. What was that for you? uh Well, I said that I didn't believe in myself in the sense that I knew that it was going to be very complicated. In fact, I started to do something else. I started to do med school in France, knowing that I was really, really into fragrances and really into perfumes. And because I thought there was no possible outcome, possible positive outcome. I started to do something else. And then as I was in med school, my my obsession with perfume didn't didn't slow down and it kept going, it kept growing. So I decided to look how to become a perfumer. And then I got a lot of people from everywhere and sometimes from my family telling me that it was becoming a perfumer was like wanting to become an actor or something like this. very, very, very close world and very, but. very improbable situation and so since I was conscious of this I was quite I was never too proud of saying that I wanted to become a perfumer and even in Yezidka I remember being I mean we were all at that stage where we're trying to look for internship or for apprenticeship and you get a lot of rejection so in the end it's kind of unstable. It's hard to believe in yourself until somebody else believes in you. mean, it really helps that somebody else believes in you. I really thankful that you've said it and that said you said that you had all those doubts but because sometimes mmm Well, I've just recently had an interview with someone and he said that it's easy to connect the dots afterwards About what what led to what and what were the points which were really important and in your story I believe that it was very difficult at the beginning to connect all the dots. We all wants to connect the dots Like straight away, like I'm doing it all right. I'm born in a French family, in a perfumery family. I don't know, like what's next. And you're just really showing up that, well, it's not always like that. You could just go to different directions before finding it. and you graduate and you're 18 and you're supposed to say what you want to do for the rest of your life, but actually you're quite immature at 18. So maybe at 20, 22, 25, you start connecting the dots much better. Yeah, exactly. like for me, it was also like my education in the fragrance industry. em I just found myself to be one of the oldest students because I was doing my masters in management of flavor in fragrance industry at 26. While most of the students were like 23, 22. like for them, I'm already was too old kind of stuff. But I really believe that it's never too old. You're never too old for any activity. But of course, that's indeed that some systems and especially I believe maybe the French educational system, as far as I can judge, it wants you to be pretty sure what you're going to be doing at the age of, I don't know, 15, maybe from the start. Yeah, absolutely. They expect you to, I mean, at least I was coming from a school, quite classical Parisian school where it was you become an engineer or you do a marketing school or you do med school. And that was kind of the three options. Pretty close. And so if you wanted to do anything else, it was kind of weird. It was you weren't going to succeed out of this. So interesting, so interesting because just imagining how difficult it could be for a person and also for many people who don't have any access to the fragrance world because I believe you found out about the Sipka probably like don't know later in your life not at the age of 10. No, no, clearly. uh While in med school, actually, while doing studies, well, while doing researches on internet of what could be done if you wanted to become a perfumer, thank God it's quite, uh the link is quite direct. So you can see that there's this and also uh the École supérieure du parfum, two main uh options. But yeah, you don't find that at the age of 10 and people don't speak about it as well, so... But I'm so happy you're lucky to find all those things. Also this person who's I've mentioned, he said that, well, nobody could refuse that the element of luck is very important in this industry. sure. If you could describe how do your hobbies, I couldn't even say hobbies, how like better say your lifestyle influences your creations. What would you say about it? Well, so for example, I grew up half in England and half in Paris. And in England, I had my horse. I was in a portrait school. And so this, know, a uh big impact in my creation because I'm all the time trying to recreate uh fragrances that have, I don't know, a kind of leathery, uh hay notes. I know that my passions oh affect my taste and then when I create a fragrance, if it's possible, I like to imagine something that is linked. for example, we are going to be launching with my company, we're going to be launching three fragrances with each an inspiration, uh a very particular inspiration, and this is just under our brand. So we had total creativity for this. We had total liberty. And one of them is a leathery perfume that has a strong connection with this world of the Christian world. I in many ways it influences you or even the surfing with being in the water, this marinos, this saltiness, all of this has a... Well, I love working marine notes for clients because I'm all the time projecting myself in the water and it comes naturally, even though I don't have Calon. Yeah, I couldn't imagine how difficult it is. Well, frankly, will be happy to experience the new sands, which you will create, if there will be any... those lovely things. Just because I remember clearly one of the teachers, raw materials teachers, he tried to tell us when he was asked to make a swimming pool sand. For him it was a challenge to understand which type of swimming pool are we talking about. Are we talking about the swimming pool for the Olympic Games? Are we talking about the private swimming pool in the sunny villa? don't know. And he had all the play for just doing whatever he wanted. And for you it's also to create an oceanic sand, a specific oceanic sand, because people may be thinking that, it's just a marine sand and that's uh No, no, it's much more complex. specific with a limited... ah like for a family which just even the whole appearance is connected to synthetics. Yeah, yeah, it's true. Yeah, it's not the same thing trying to recreate the smell and the feeling of the Mediterranean or of the Atlantic Ocean or over the sea uh on the British coast. It's a temperature plays a lot, everything. I want to ask you here about traveling. it sounds like if I were you, I will be uh that pain in the ass, which you'll be saying to her boss like, since I need to create a British coast, I couldn't do it without going there. So of course I could use my imagination to read something, et cetera. However, how do you deal with this challenge? Because I believe you couldn't go to all the destinations you work on. Yeah, no, that's for sure. But I'm still lucky enough to be able to travel, I mean, in Spain at least to the places where we have the clients to understand the world. And even especially when it's hotels that, well, they welcome you and they make you live the experience and then you can have a better idea of what they're trying to transmit with the experience and then how to interpret it attractively. But it's true that traveling is the key and I'm very lucky to go each year to Milan to the Niche Fragrance Exhibition and there you can also smell a lot of things and it's very open-minded. Yeah, yeah. just thought that maybe, you know, um on the one hand, you want to experience all the traveling destinations for your creations, but on the other hand, your um customers, your clients, maybe have never experienced them either, if you haven't experienced them and they haven't experienced them. And maybe there is even something good that you all imagine how it should smell. completely at the imagination behind the idea that you have of, I don't know, Managascar or something like a Managascar beach. Well, this is playing also on how people are thinking of this even though they haven't been. Right. But we are already almost in a dreaming zone. So ah I understand that creating the dots will be an interesting journey maybe in a few years, but what would be, what could you imagine for yourself as the next dot you will be happy to be connected with if you could share? Well, I would love to work for a French brand. It's going to sound a bit weird, but I have observed that my clients that are French are much more, well, are very into fragrances. And I don't know, maybe it's because there is a big education about this in the French world. I usually have a lot of... uh It's a lot of challenge when I have French clients because they're very specific on what they want and I would love to work for, like create the fragrance for French, for example, retail brand or something. That's interesting. While using the same, I believe, palet of materials, so you are now married to naturals. Yeah, well, I'm not moving from, from my own camp really, really enjoying it here and the company is great. so yeah, also, I'm, I would be very happy to see that, uh, we're evolving into that naturality in the fragrances as well. And it doesn't mean that it has to smell botanical, but, you can, you can really have natural fragrances that are, uh, quite normal fragrances, even though it's a plus that it's been natural. And I would like to. to see this evolving a little bit in the world, like having more, maybe more brands aware of this and making the consumer a bit more aware. so, yeah, creating a natural perfume, for example, for brand, French brand that has already perfumes, but that are not for 100 % natural would be a great challenge, great opportunity. Yeah, indeed. I believe it would be very interesting, you know, that right now we have sometimes some brands which write the name of perfumers on the bottle. It's a new way for the last 10 years, Maybe 15, but generally 10. But I think it would be interesting that at some point there would be an opportunity to write the name of the composition house, of the creation house. Not instead of course of your brand, but like actually. uh like a collaboration more than a supplier Yeah, yeah, and it's like a sign of quality eh As you've started like as we've started in there this episode that you are listing the launches because for your company right now it's important to promote themselves as a sign of a specific quality and it will be great if There would be the same type of mentality for customers also to choose not only by perfumer or by the brand who just uh made a bottle or made everything work out, uh negotiated retail, but also to mention those who are standing behind it as a partner, uh indeed. course as a collaborator. That's that's perfect for me. It would be just much easier to do my choices to make my choices based on that You know like not to see well who is the perfumer exactly? But maybe if I know that this is the house of composition who works with these specific materials have these ethics and of course I know has Carol uh Why not for me it will be yeah, right this Perfect to talk to you and I'm so happy that you know answers to many questions about yourself. I believe you just will reflect a lot of things and yeah, it's getting dark. Caroline could hardly see me. I'm already almost like a ghost. ah But yeah, in Scandinavia people try to keep lighting very limited so that um you know this cozy atmosphere so I couldn't make it even brighter right now. But I have the last... piece of questions and these are bleeds questions. Okay. Yes. Perfect. So, we kinda touched it upon a little bit, but favorite city for fragrance inspiration. Now, city, like not a natural spot. Amsterdam wow. Unexpectedly. Yeah, it's full of scents after that. It's crazy. It has these, well, these water canals. It has a lot of nature, a lot of food smell, these pastries, these spices. It has also a lot of green smells, as you know, coffee smells, and it's incredible. I found it very, very complex in terms of smell in this city. Sounds interesting. One ingredient you love working with the most. We've already been talking about leathery notes a lot, but I don't know if there is one ingredient in this family or other families. I would say Tonkabin. I'm into Tonkabin right now. Yeah, it warms my heart. A tricky one. Favorite yoga pose. To unwind or like to relax. I like all of his head down pose, like inversions. I would say Pinchas Vajuranasana, which is the one where you have the head down and you're with the forearms on the floor. What's the last perfume you wore? Last perfume I wore is Santal du Pacifique de Péris Monte Carlo, which is like a very warm, woody and quite mineral, sandalwood perfume. It's incredible. I really like this perfume. Now I need to smell it as well. The link for the listeners will be in the description if somebody didn't get the name, but we will do our best. And yeah, I believe that this house has a lot of good perfumers. Good collaborations, I would say, if I'm not wrong. So, the most exotic scent you've ever smelled? mean, Priprioca is one of the aromaterals that I recently smelled. It for me has a hundred different facets. So it's still a mystery and I've been smelling it for almost two months and every day I smell it differently. So it's quite surprising in that sense. It's an essential oil of Priprioca and I think it's a kind of root. which has spicy, rooty, woody notes and uh even a bit leathery, I think, some citrusy notes. I mean, it's very, complex. So for me, this would be the surprise of this year. I believe it's surprise for everyone who just heard it for the first time. So that's the difference between people who know about some common raw materials and about the naturals. Okay, we will check it out and also leave a link for that. Most challenging sand to work with. Maybe we create... Well, for me, the aromatic family is one of the hardest, especially lavender, for example, which a lot of people request it in the fragrance and then they don't like it because it smells like a clean product or like a pillow spray for relaxing. It's hard to make it into a fine fragrance perfume for me. So, yeah, this would be the... It's just almost unavoidable. It's like you think about Lavender and you imagine it, like you immediately think. Yeah. And at the same time, it's very, it's very famous here. Well, in Majorca in the Mediterranean, it's one of the aromas that are the most representative, but at the same time, it's, it has been overused and Lavendine as well in many, different types of products, linked to detergents and laundry and soaps and everything. So it kind of lost its fine connotation. And for that, it's not easy. Yeah. It's, well, yeah, I believe that it's very hard to break this ah connection in the heads of people. I don't even know what they expect, in fact, asking you to create a level of descent, like maybe very, very subtle. Yeah, it has to be a hint maybe. Alright. And the last one. So, one source of inspiration. It could be anything. A book, a movie or something else which you would recommend maybe everyone to try or watch or read or visit. Okay, I'm gonna think about this. Inspiration for Persian creation? No, maybe just to feel inspired. It might be anything about self exploration, it might be a perfume recreation, might be a career piece of advice, just anything which maybe stroke you recently. Well, I recently got with yoga introduced to breath work, breath work on yourself. And I found it that even though I was quite uh bad at this, it took me a while to be able to really appreciate the benefits. But it's really amazing what it can do and where your head goes during these moments. For me, it's a perfect way to... get inspired from the inside in a way. Uh-huh. So I could only support this one. Any particular technique uh you liked recently? Yeah, I discovered that breathing from the belly for me does something very, very deep, like as if the mind was very connected to the stomach. And when you breathe and you try to inflate your belly and not your chest and then contract your belly and not your chest, when you feel really the movement from the belly, I feel like it has a power of releasing some some, I don't know, endorphins or something that really, really works. at least for me, this is a, this is a big revelation. The good news is that it's also science-based. I just don't have it on my table right now, but I've just finished the book, Breath, uh today. And yeah, really, really, really love everything there. Well, perfect, Caroline. I'm so happy to have you. You're so whole, you know? So there's so much integrity in you. I our conversation. Thank you so much. Thank you for your questions. Very interesting as well. I find that it's not necessarily the same approach as the podcast that I could have heard. So it's super interesting to have a lot of different questions and from different angles. It was very interesting. Thank you. We reflected together on that. uh