№ 24 – From Lab to TikTok: Jérôme Di Marino on Excellence in Perfumery

In this episode we’re joined by the brilliant perfumer Jérôme Di Marino, whose career has taken him from early dreams of becoming an artist to mastering the technical and emotional world of fine fragrance. From Givaudan to Givenchy, Takasago to MANE — Jérôme’s journey proves that the creative path is rarely linear… and never boring.

📚 Mentioned in the episode:
• Le Monde de Sophie by Jostein Gaarder
• Infusion d’Iris (Prada) & Dior Homme — two iris fragrances Jérôme admires
• The legendary tiramisu of his Italian grandmother (we're jealous too)

Ever dreamt about going to space? Connect with Tanya!

• https://www.instagram.com/neparfumer/
• https://www.coachmironova.com/

Transcript

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you Welcome to the How I Became a Perfumer podcast. In each episode, we explore the different roles in the flavor and fragrance industry, as well as talk to founders of independent projects. My name is Tanya Mironova. I'm your host and a career coach. I'm here to guide you through the world of flavor and fragrances and inspire you to create your dream career. My guest for today's episode is Jerome DiMarino. remarkable talent in the fragrance industry currently working for Mane. Jerome's journey from the French Alps to the forefront of fragrance industry in Paris and Barcelona I believe is a testament to his dedication and passion for perfumery. Jerome, welcome to the show. Hi, thank you for hosting me. I'm very glad you came. So Jerome, well, I would like to build our interview in a little bit different way than usually, because I noticed from my previous research that you are really into connecting to feelings and emotions in your work, I believe probably in your life. And I would like to really ask you questions based on these feelings, but in relation to your career. Would that be fine? So when I was reading one of the interviews I really liked, you were talking about your passion for drawing. And if somebody checks your Instagram, and I believe our listeners will do it, they will understand what I'm talking about. Because it's really, really something. I really love your drawings as well. I appreciate it. And in this interview you wrote that growing for you has always been escape from the rest. So could you please elaborate on that? What may be feelings, emotions or was it just a natural process of growing up when we try to abandon our feelings and emotions? So what was that for you? It is funny that you start with this topic because many times I do a relation between how I have to create fragrances, mean what are the skills that you need to create fragrances regarding the patients that you might have to or the details that you have to take care about when you are crafting a fragrance. It's true that I was drawing a lot when I was a kid. Actually, I wanted to dedicate myself to an art school because I was using drawings like it was a passion and it was a way of escaping, not physically, but to let my mind free and wander somewhere else. I was spending a lot of time doing that and it's true that I, that's not finally the path that I chose because I didn't think at that time that my skills were good enough to live from that patient, I would say. But I get back to drawings during COVID because I, you know, the time stopped. Literally, and I took the time to come back to my first patient. But when I was a teenager and when I was thinking about what would be the path that I should pick up, it's true that I chose a safer option, I would say. I did scientific studies because it was a safer way and I thought that it would let open many doors to the future because I didn't really know what to do with my life, my professional life. I'm always very surprised that we ask young people to make a choice at such a young age. And I was a bit anxious about that because in a way the system makes you believe that you have to make a choice very quick and that you don't have later options. Like you can't change. You take this path, it's literature or scientific. Like it's two words. And it doesn't mean that you can go back to the one you left on the side later. So anyway, I chose sciences because it was a safer way to go ahead. And I was studying in Nice in French Riviera. It's very close to grass, actually, which is the capital of perfumery. So I thought that maybe I could work on the synthesis of new molecules, all molecules for perfumery. And when I started looking for this escape door, in a way I would say, because that I liked science but I wasn't convinced that it was done for me, like searching. I wasn't sure about that. And when I discovered in Grasse the existence of the position of perfumer, it came as an evidence because it was the perfect way for me to go back to my creative aspirations and with my university background, actually. Well, I'm so fascinated by all what you've described and want to ask you because we are really... It feels like you reflect a lot on what you felt at some point and about feeling that science is not probably your thing. I mean, well, it's just a very rude probably, very straightforward way to say it, but how did it feel? I mean, have you feel bored or have you feel... Like, what were that? I would say that when you are studying, sometimes you don't know what you want to dedicate your day-to-day studies to. And when I discovered Perfumery, it was at a time where we didn't have that much access to the informations that we have today through social networks, through TikTok, through Instagram or web pages. When I was starting, looking for some information about how to become a perfumer. There was a book written from Jean-Claude Elena, which is a famous perfumer. And there wasn't that much more than that. There is a lot of books about the past of perfumery, about the eras of the, it's coming from, from the incense, from Egypt. Yes, the perfumery at the time of Marie-Antoinette and Versailles. I was, okay, it's fine. But I want to know where is the perfumery world now? How could we have access to that? So it was a bit frustrating because there were kind of such a mystery about how to become a perfumer at the time. And by chance I discovered that there was that school in Versailles. which is called Izipka and has been created by the Gernan family. And at the time it was the only one. It was the main, it was not the only one, but it was the main one and so that was the goal. Yeah, so for you if I hear you correctly basically it was the contrast maybe you felt which made you usually assured you about your future. I mean you were actually into something. I mean you've been working on on that studying on science but when you actually saw this book and then maybe other books and then the brochure which you mentioned about the sipkas of then these contrasts really helped you understand what you want at that point. Yes, I knew that I was a creative person and I was looking for a way to find a creative job. So that was the perfect match when I discovered the fragrance world. And it was complicated because you don't know that you are good at it since you haven't tried it. So you are trying to... project yourself in the future and will I be good to that or not? It's quite tricky because you need a lot of ideas but perfumery is also a position when you are a perfumer you need technical skills and you have to learn it so you don't know if you will be able to be at the the level to be that creative and technically at the same time. So it's when you start to study perfumery, it's a bit like a mystery. You don't really know if you, since you don't work on your first formula on your first project, you don't really know what's your value for that. So it's complicated, but you have to. It's a lot of work and you have to trust in yourself and go ahead. But when you started with ESIPKA and well, TRUST in yourself, I believe, was already present. Did you feel that, well, it was good that I took the scientific part first, because otherwise I probably wouldn't be eligible for the studies or I wouldn't be able to do them with ease? There's few people that are coming from other backgrounds than chemistry or scientific background and they are brilliant. for me, what I take from my chemistry background is more the rigor, know, the way you process things. It's more about this organization that chemistry needs to be applied. It's not that I don't... I chemistry in my day to day work when I think about creative processing fragrances. because there are many other people more qualified than I do in chemistry if we need help on this side because a fragrance is not stable or whatever. I just take from my chemistry background these kind of skills that you need as a perfumer. being rigorous with what you are doing because it's this sense of details like you are measuring, you are doing formulas, are measuring quantities and one gram is one gram, it's not one zero one, it's one, know, so rounding things and you have to be the precision, the precision is very important. Yeah, right. It's very interesting that it's not... It's the approach which helps. It's not exactly the knowledge because basically you could find knowledge and as you've said, you can find specialists who are more into something particular like about what to do to not have any issues while composing afterwards a big chunk of formula. However, it's really good that you mentioned it. Because I believe some people think that, if I am not really deep into chemistry or into science, maybe I should not be in this profession. But as you've said, definitely helps just to have the approach. Just travel a bit further. For me, it's not necessary. mean, creativity is more important. That you feel it inside and then you can learn the technical skills. I don't say that it's easy, it's a long path, but in a way, don't think that chemistry is the main point for a perfumer. I would agree with that. My next question is a little bit, maybe tricky one, but if you could help us a little bit, it would be interesting. In one again of the interviews it's written that you, after your studies, you had a couple of years as an intern trainee perfumer at Zhivedan. And if I'm not wrong, just correct me at any point, the trainee program at Zhivedan takes four years right now. Okay, so yeah, you are talking about the internal school at Givaudan. But I was in an internship in Givaudan when I was in Ezebka. So it was previously to normally I should have been like doing this during two years and then the plan was to join the school but life have some surprises sometimes. I arrived just in the middle of the bank crisis in 2008 and Givaudan was closing a factory in Lyon, in France. So people get fired, not much people, but you know, it was quite complicated. So when my internship ended, I left Givaudan and that was a... a big question mark for me. You you start practicing in the number one company of fragrances and then after that you say, okay, where am I going now? Exactly, like the factory is closing, mean it's fascinating. So I have many doubts at that moment because I've spent two years in Givaudan where I've been trained by Natalie Cetto. She's a senior perfumer. She's still working at Givaudan in Paris. And she offered me so much. She shared a lot about perfumery. was kind of my initiation program, I would say, to Perfume World. And I've spent two years focusing on the learning of the raw materials mainly. And then I've worked on a few arcades, but you have to know very well your raw materials before playing with them in a formula. or you wouldn't be understanding properly what you are doing. And then after Jeeva Dhan... By casualty, would say, I have the opportunities to join Givenchy. So it wasn't at all my initial plan, but I thought, okay, why not? Let's take that experience. And I've spent in Givenchy one year. And it was a really very understanding, sorry, very interesting experience because I was on the other side for the first time. And when you are working in a fragrance house, you have to accept the decisions from the customer. And sometimes you don't understand how it's processing, how it's working over there. So it was really interesting because I understood many things about customer language as well, which are my customers now in my day to day. I understood a bit more about marketing plans, know, five years, three years marketing plans or all the coordination with the factory and because I was in the position as an I would say intermediary between the fragrance houses and the marketing team. And then I was working when I arrived on a new masculine fragments that they were briefing houses. It was the Gentleman Society, no, not the society, a gentleman only. It was the name of the project. And it was in a way, it was really interesting, but it was a bit frustrating at the same time because I wanted to be on the other side. I was working on the project, but I felt that I was not outside, but almost outside of the project because I wasn't in the day-to-day creation of it. I mean that once a week, I was talking with the perfumers and I was saying, I was doing evaluation. Actually, I was saying, okay, the fragrance is great, but we need it to be a bit more woody or a bit less spicy or whatever. And then you wait a week or a few days. And you don't feel, you know that they are doing this in the Fragrance House and you are just waiting. So in a way, waiting for the next shipment or the next meeting to work on it. So I had the confirmation that I wasn't made for that. I wanted to go back to the creation, to the day to day creation. But I've learned a lot. It was a really interesting experience and And I would totally recommend it to anybody who wants to be a perfumer because you understand a lot of things and you start seeing what is the expectations. Even if in 10 years it changed a lot the expectations of what's the perfumer role in the creation. But you are in a day to day life. As a perfumer, very exposed to failure, to critics. And you have to get used to it. you won't survive, I would say, in a way. yes, failure is a really important place in your day-to-day work as a perfumer. Because you might work many projects at the same time, but the statistic is that you lose main part of it because it's a very competitive role, very competitive industry. You have competition inside the fragrance house with other perfumers. Sometimes work together with them and the same day you work with them and sometimes not. Sometimes they are your competitors. So that's something you have to learn how to deal with. then after you have the competition outside, obviously. that's in terms of personality that might be sometimes a bit schizophrenic. you have to know how to compose with that. And the experience in the customer showed me a lot about the failure that you have to communicate to people that they worked six months very hardly on a project. we didn't pick their creation. So that's hard on both sides, I think. We just made great advertising to the profession of a perfumer and also to other ones. If I may, we'll return to a few points because I find them very important to reiterate with you. It seems again that because you got to the evaluator's job instead of the perfumer's job, which you've intended previously, you again felt these contrasts which helped you realize what is that exactly you want. And I like it because some people think that it's just like very straightforward. if, like, I don't know, if they made a suggestion about something, they don't even try other ways. mean, they could go to the fragrance industry and look from the evaluator side, or they could go and look from the marketing side or from another side. And then eventually end up doing something different, but then they will be really sure about it. I feel like that. And otherwise, I think it's sometimes difficult to be 100 % sure that, okay, like it's the only way I want it to be. If that's the only thing that you've seen, maybe it's hard to have a real good judgment. So that's always interesting to other experiences. To make you then be sure that you took the right decision. And you always learn from experiences, wherever it is. You couldn't learn if you didn't leave the house. Talking about failures, I really liked it. You reiterated it a few times. It's like day to day thing. How do you manage those? it's I don't have any good advice to reveal about that but it's about ego, it's about it's moving a lot of things inside you know so I think that it's more that you have to to keep believing in what you're doing like what I understood when I was at Givenchy is that okay so people doing their best and sometimes they are out of the project not because the fragrance was wrong, the fragrance was bad or technically it wasn't at the point or whatever. It's just that sometimes it's not, you are not at the right place at the good moment. And it doesn't mean that you are not good enough for that. It's just that there are so many other parameters in the question I would say. that your skills and the quality of the work that you are delivering, it's not always the reason of the failure. So you have to assume that many other parameters are into the game. And sometimes you lose the game not just because you are not a good perfumer, it's just because sometimes you don't have the right proposal at the right moment or maybe... you'll go back to this idea that you have a strong olfactory idea, but maybe it's not mature enough. So you lose it on a project, you try again months later or two years later or whatever in another project, you work on it. Few months, you discover new technical things into this proper formula that you may improve. At the first project, it wasn't maybe powerful enough and now you manage to make it bigger and bigger. And then you go step by step making a better, better freelance. And sometimes it's just that it wasn't mature enough. So you go back to it and it's a long term work sometimes. don't have this, you know, there's a bit a cliche about a creative person having an idea. Yes, you can have the idea, but you need the technical work on it to make it work. I really feel that there is a very important thing which you probably nurtured in yourself and maybe your mentors helped you to do that and we will talk about them a little bit later. That you have a balance. You have a very healthy balance between understanding that you are doing your work as well as good as you can, as creatively as you can. And it doesn't... like the moments of failure don't make you a bad perfumer. So you are still keeping yourself strong and you still could create and you still are not really feel it as a failure. And I believe this balance is very important for any, absolutely any position, project, whatever. Because sometimes after a chain of... well, I don't wanna... call them even failures, like after a chain of these learning curves, you might just lose totally yourself, your self-confidence, your understanding, your feelings about yourself, and even this very important something inside which previously kept you going. So this balance is something I really feel we need to nurture in ourselves. Well, the most important part is to take advantage. It's not easy, but to take advantage of the failure saying, okay, what did I do wrong? Or how could I do better the next time? If you just fail and you switch to another topic and you don't stop just to process it and think what was wrong and how could I do it better in the future? it would be a double failure, think, you know? If you don't take advantage of that, at least, to improve yourself. So dear listeners, please take this piece of advice from Jerome right away. mean, like don't make a failure a double failure. Well, I would like to return to the role of mentors, but before that I want to ask you it's like my personal question. When you started had this internship slash I believe it's apprenticeship in French probably at Givetown. Did you have it? Did you study perfumery raw materials by alphabet or by families already? I studied by you everybody used to study it by families because you you compare in the same family for example you will compare all the woods or all the spices and you will notice the difference if you compare them between them like I okay I for example if you compare various qualities of Seda wood you will you will smell the differences for example the Atlas is a bit more leathery bit more dirty the The one from Virginia smells a bit like a wood box or like a drawing pen. So that's how you manage to memorize them. Like you relate them to also a lot of personal memories, which helps you assembling all the raw materials because there's so many of them that we have access to that it's You have to find personal tricks to remember them. So that's why wanted to ask, you ever had a fight maybe with your mentors about somebody saying, this is a, I don't know, citrus family. And you're like, no guys, it's a, I don't know. Let's say floral. It's... You know, in perfumery, it's very subjective sometimes. Indeed, that's why asked whether it was by families or by alphabet as it was like 40 years ago. And also it's a very lonely learning. Like even if you have a mentor, you have your own memory and you have your own way to process the memorization of all the raw materials. if you don't manage to do it yourself, nobody can do that for you. So maybe a mentor here in this part of this learning, they can help you. with technical tricks or with advices or some maybe some commentaries like for me coriander I remember it because the leaf it smells like soap something soapy like mandarin but the seed it smells very floral like linalo like freesia so they could give you some tips some maybe the way they manage to memorize it but You have your own nose and you have your own memory. So you have to find your way to memorize them. And that's why the first change you've done, remember spending hours and hours alone at my desk with boxes, with numbers on the smaller samples to make blind tests of raw materials. Like blind tests all the day, all the day to make like a larger scope of what are the raw materials. There's so many of them that it's a very hard work at the beginning. You have to go through this stage which is not the easiest one or the funniest one, but it's like I used to compare it to painting as well. You have to understand what are the colors that you have at your palette and the different shades of them. Like maybe sometimes you won't use a fluo pink the same way that you use a pastel one and you have to understand what is the difference between them. And it's quite the same with the raw materials. You can't be a good painter if you don't even know how to handle your own palette. Totally. And you know, when you said that it's very lonely, I don't know why. Really don't know. But it's just we're talking about feelings and emotions, which are very important to acknowledge, as you've also mentioned in one of the interviews for the creative person, especially, and also for the customers. However, I had the privilege to visit the Giverdan Perfumerie School, the one we are talking about. And when you said lonely, I unfortunately could say that this is exactly the feeling I got there. You have everything. mean virtually everything I believe. Like to smell and to make your research and to memorize. But again you might think like I will have a mentor and they will tell me what to do. Well if their description of something doesn't stick with you or you find something special about your material and somebody doesn't feel it that way. You're lonely. If you are sitting in one, like, you or yourself in the lab with these, like, small wheels which are everywhere, but the fact that you will be left alone with your studies, in fact, with your studies you think which will make you very happy but maybe not, is something we often forget, because some people learn differently, not everyone learns very well staying alone with a subject of their dreams. And it's true that even when you become a perfumer, you are alone with your formula. the good point is that nowadays people are working more together. Like we are doing creative teams with two or three perfumers. So sometimes when you are stuck in your formula, you might have some help from another perfumer. But it's true that in this learning process, you are by yourself. And I felt when I, because after Givenchy, I've been working at Takasago with Francis Courjon. And it's true that I felt again, this kind of loneliness because I was on my desk in my office and I was learning by myself because I remember having schedules, meeting with Francis like twice a week maybe. and we were reviewing all the topics together during one or two hours and then all the rest of the week I was by myself at the lab or at the office and it's a long process that you have to handle by yourself and that's just how you learn like trying, trying again and again and again and that's how you can improve your technical skills Frankly, I find a lot of bravery, I believe this is the right word, and courage in that way of learning, because many people don't really understand how difficult it might be. It's not that it's long and that you... In a way, it's a good point when you are a perfumer because you never stop learning. As the process is so long that I'm not the same perfumer that I was three years ago. And each day, sometimes I discover new ways of using a raw material that I was using during years. Or sometimes I think about there's some raw materials that I never use. And from a day to another, I discover an interest in it. and a new way to use it and I start using it everywhere. So it's a new era in my perfumery, you know. It's time that you have a new product. It might open doors to new creations. And that was a very good point when I arrived at Mann because I had to adjust myself and my vision of perfumery to a totally new palette. Of course we have common products with the other companies. but there are new naturals that I didn't have before. Like I'm thinking about all the fruits that I didn't have when I was at Tacasago and a new natural palette. even if it's the same flower or the same spice, sometimes depending on the way you extract the product, it doesn't have this exact same olfactive results. So sometimes you have good surprises and sometimes not. And it... gives you like it was really refreshing creatively speaking because I it gave me a lot of new ideas to start working on so I really enjoyed this this new blank page in a way I keep the skills that I had before and improve them day to day but I have a new a new palette it's kind like new toys to play with Right. Basically it's also something I haven't thought about. You just already have had access to the palates from three major companies. Which like in quite short time, quite short for a perfumer learning because it really takes a long time. And yeah, it's also something great. I haven't thought about it, that it really keeps you again, like your nail plasticity has to be very high. to be able to adjust to these changes and well judging by what you are saying you really like it. I mean these challenges. It's very challenging, as you said, challenges. It's the word, because when I arrived at Mana, was with some raw materials, I was a bit lost. Some qualities of cedar wood, for example, I used to use such like a very specific amount of it, and it was a different quality. There were like terpenic, it's a very technical word, but a bit dirty facet on top, and I didn't realize first, and it was... like ruining nine of ten of the composition I was working on and I was where is the problem where's the problem so you you have to adjust it doesn't happen for all the raw materials hopefully but you have to adjust yourself to that was one of the blitz questions, but the fact that you mentioned cedarwood for the third time during our short interview make me think that this is probably one of your favorite raw materials, is it? It's not, I wouldn't say that it's my favorite, but it's true that it's kind of a cameleon raw material in a way, because when you have a look at the woods, sandalwood is very creamy, it's taking a lot of space, vetiver might be a bit smoky, it's not very feminine, patchouli might be a bit vintage when it brings you to the sheep world. So you can use it in both feminine. Masculine you can use it almost in all the markets It's kind it's kind the easy the easy would to work with like if you if you I Don't know if I must study, but I it's true that I I use I use it almost every day. That's true Yeah, I'm just also sitting with a pencil and thinking about cedarwood at this point. I also wanted to acknowledge you as maybe one of the first perfumers I've ever seen saying that it's very important to be able to communicate with customer and to be able to communicate thoroughly about fragrances and I'm quoting you in the age of social media. This is again something you also learned. Yeah, I've learned it from Francis, of course, which he was who was one of the first perfumer with Jean-Claude Delena maybe to be that exposed to journalists, to customers. And the communication was very important and it's very important for him now in his position in Dior as well. And I remember one day that he told me I have to translate it from the French, but it told me, what's the point if you have a fragrance that smells good, but you don't know how to talk about that? It can't talk by itself. So you have to know how to explain what was your creative process beside it. It's kind of a story that you want to tell. Instead of telling it with words, you have to tell it with the raw materials. But in the end, you have to know how to talk about that in a press launch to talk about that to the brand which is going to pick up the fragrance or not. And it's a very important point nowadays in the perfumer position that you have to know how to talk about what you are working on in your day to day that can make a very big difference. Well, talking about languages, because you said it's the first language of probably words which comes to mind, or like the brief is quite often written human language. Rarely it is in pictures or something, but I believe you might have had it anyways. But what language do you use for thinking? Because you know a lot, as I've noticed from the interviews, your background. At least four I counted. Yes, French is my native language. So I used to, I think in French, of course, but it's true that as I moved to Barcelona two years ago, sometimes I'm just thinking Spanish or dreaming Spanish. So it's, it's quite weird, but it's more on my personal life. When I'm in my professional life, my mind is more switching on English or French depending on who I'm working with. But it's true that Regarding the fragrance industry, I'm thinking more in English. Sure. Got it. Because it was very interesting for me what language do you use for the thinking. And you've mentioned that you are like professional and personal life intertwined. And I wanted to ask you what are maybe the things, and this is not the question I was thinking previously about, but when I talked to you I feel that you're the right person to ask. What are maybe the personal space kind of things, personal comfort kind of things which are important? to keep yourself going again from one learning curve to another learning curve. So we know that professionally you are very well versed and you are trying to improve each day. But there are things apart from work which really influence how you work as a professional. So what do you feel are the most important pieces from your daily life when the perfumery work stops? And I understand it might never be stopping for you, which you could say to pay attention to. I pay attention a lot of what is happening around us. know, because I think that I always say that a fragrance is a reflection to our society. Like you have, when you are a perfumer, you are at the beginning with the brand, at the beginning of the creation. And you, when you will work on a fragrance, it, it take maybe a year to develop. And then it may take a year to, to make the industrial process. So it might take two years from the beginning of the project to the moment that the fragrance is launched. So you have to have this kind of ability, I would say, have anticipation to try to catch the signals that the society is sending to understand what might people would like to wear in two years. Because the... The cycle is quite long. It's not fast fashion. You just send the product, it's in the market, it's selling, it's over. You have a new one which replace it. Fragrance is a long-term product. You have to think of fragrance to last in time. So you have to try to understand what could fit the market in the next years or the next decade. I don't know if you go further. So what I pay attention to is the signals that the society is sending to us in other industries, other words, creative words. can be fashion, but it can be music as well. It can be cinema. I like to get inspired. It's more on the creative side, but to get inspired from gastronomy, mixology, pastries, because It's in a way they are using the chef, are using products that we have as perfumer at the palette most of the time. For example, if you try a cocktail with ginger and basil, you say, that could be a starting point for an idea because they have both at the palette. So you have to know how to work on that. But it's a very, for me, it's a very important source of inspiration. And this idea of signals from the society is just that you have, if you look at all the other industries, you might have some common link, common bonds between each other. And that gives you an idea of what might come in the next years or what is, I don't know, what is interesting is to have a look at the series as well, you know? All the trend of the pop music and I think I'm very interested in that. I think it's very interesting as a perfumer to keep the connection with that. And it's funny because I'm a lot of lately, I've spent a lot of time on TikTok, not that much in Instagram and in TikTok you see a lot of... a very strong community about fragrances and a lot of passionate people. And for me, it's a very good tool for a perfumer to have it. Because you don't have the time to smell all the lunches because now it's just crazy. There are so many brands and so many lunches. But in a way, the social media helps you making like a filter. So it gives you the trends in a way about what is working or what is not. And as a perfumer, I'm following it very closely. I feel very inspirational when you're saying that and I feel that I need a notebook to put there my conscious observation notes. Because on the one hand, like you go around and you see things, but sometimes you don't really pay attention to them. Maybe you do it naturally, but I quite often might feel that something is there. But then I forget and maybe believe like making notes would be a good tool for me. So I learned from you here. And about the TikTok, my God, I I so again acknowledge that you are very, very flexible in terms of learning. You have to adjust yourself to the society you are living in or you are going to be creating things outdated. You're going to miss the train in a way. We say it in French. I don't know if it's correct in English. believe in every language we have the Mr. Train analogy. But you have to keep yourself connected to that or you're gonna miss it. You're gonna miss all the interest that the new generation might have. If it's the way they are consuming it, if it's the way they are talking about fragrances and all the rest, you have to try at least to understand what's gonna be the interest for them tomorrow in fragrances. I agree, I agree. Since they're not on another planet, we need to keep ourselves together and work on it. It's true that most of the time people have this kind of cliché image of the perfumer which think about its own creative ideas and whatever but it's more the perfumer is working for brands. The perfumer is working to make fragrances not for him. It's a gift to the consumer, to people passionate about fragrances so you don't have to lose it from sight. You have to remember that you are doing for who you are creating fragrances. And you are offering your skills and your passion to that. To create fragrances for people. Maybe this approach really explains why you're a very successful perfumer. I mean, because the brands, also follow their customers very attentively and you do it as well. I tried because you have to speak the same language. So it helps in a way. Well, I believe it could be a very long podcast episode, so I will probably stop asking very big questions right now. But I will ask you a few blitz questions if I could. Okay. So what's your favorite dessert? Okay, it's tiramisu. It's quite cliché because I know it's my Italian part speaking here, but I'm a big fan of tiramisu. So different. Yeah, and that's the problem because I'm used to the recipe of my grandmother and she used to put just a touch of alcohol from the Alps and it's very herbal. You know, it's very aromatic and I've never found it anywhere else. So I'm missing this. You know, I have the recipe and when I visit her, she's doing it, but it's very hard to compete with this version of the tiramisu. But that might explain as well in Fragrance that I love to work with coffee, with cocoa, with the gourmand nut. You know, have all these unconscious memories which influence your creations as well. So right now I'm sitting mouth-watering because I also love tiramisu. But Denmark is not the best country for this kind of dessert, not at all. But we have all sorts of pastries. So when you were talking about pastry, I was thinking that maybe the next inspirational trip would be to Copenhagen. The pastries is very interesting because the pleasure that offers sugar, you can try to reproduce it through fragrances. I always talk about fragrances like perfumes are a bit magician. I don't know how you say it. Yes, you have to do magic tricks. You have to make the illusion to recreate things through the smell. to make people getting in a way addicted to the fragrance as well. Exactly, exactly. And I think sugar is a good analogy here because some of the gourmand smells I use exactly for this purpose because I'm trying to be refined sugar-free. So this is something I'm interested in as well. And talking about inspiration, so my next bleeds question, what is your favorite place for inspiration? I would say that I travel quite a lot and the place that I like the most, I don't have a specific one, but Asia is very interesting place to be inspired because the cultural difference is so big that it's as a Occidental European people, it's very inspiring because you might... find new fruits that we don't use to eat here. For example, in the Thai food, they used to combine very strong spices with citronella, with lime that they have a very specific small lime, which is very strong. And it's very well balanced. I'm always with the spices as well, the chili pepper, and I'm always very surprised how they manage to do such strong. recipes, but everything is very well balanced and I like to wander in the markets when I'm traveling there because sometimes you rediscover as well with the new point of view products that you use in a different way in Europe and for example when I was in Mexico they used to offer you salt or pepper on the mango when they They could cut slice of it and they offered you to eat it with the spices or salt, which is not at all the use that we are doing with the mango in Europe. So it's interesting because it gives you another point of view on product that you are used to already. it's forced you to open your mind to new ways to experiment. That's very interesting. And also I believe upon return from these trips you could see your own place with a very fresh perspective again. And sometimes you have to force yourself to go out from your French or Occidental point of view because the fragrance are dedicated to the entire world. Sometimes the brands say, okay, we are focusing on this market, on this market, but that's the hardest point to go away, to go further from your own taste. And yeah, and trying mango with salt, something I will do today because I have a couple of mangoes, but from Spain, so I don't know if they are so ripe for the salt experiment because they're very fresh, you know, like green type of mangoes, but I will probably try. So thank you for the tip. One fragrance you wish you had created. I'm a lot into Oris fragrances and I think that's not something that is very weird because I've worked a lot on Oris fragrances because I love them. for me I'm hesitating because I'm a big fan of Infusion d'Iris but also Diorum and for me they are both masterpieces. So I would like to have created one of them. Well, we will hope that it's going to be like something third you will create and will be satisfied with this. And my last question. So what book is on your nightstand right now? I just finished one which is called Le Monde de Sophie, which is The World of Sophie. I don't know if it's Swedish, maybe, the author. And I read it for the second time because it's quite, there's a lot of information. And it's about the story of a little girl and she's meeting a guy. which is not a psychologist. And he's starting to teach the story of humanity. Since the creation of the world to the Roman Empire, first the Greek heritage, then from Socrates, then he talks about Roma. from that moment to Freud to the day-to-day human way of thinking about the world. It's very interesting because it's talking about a very serious topic through the eyes of a young girl and she starts to ask herself, and if I'm learning that from somebody I out from school, what am I learning at school? and it's quite an... It's it's good, it's about the educational system. I would say, but it's very interesting. And there are so many information in this book that I wanted to, that's why I read it for the second time, because I want to take more information of it. And it's also very interesting because this choice of book even goes in line with you because you want to explore the world from different perspectives as much as you can. And you seem to be open to any perspective, including the child's one. Yes, and I like this historical background as well, which is explaining a lot of things of our actual society. I believe I will order it from the Danish library. By the way, the author is Norwegian, so you are very close. mean, yeah, but well, you stay in Garda, but we will leave the link to in the description box because I think it sounds very intriguing. Right. Well, I was very happy talking to you, Jerome. Thank you for it. pleasure, honestly. Thanks. Well, this was it.